Discussion avec Christian de Digital Courage (en anglais)

Faisant suite aux échanges qui ont eu lieu lors du Freedom Not Fear et qui sont relatés dans cette discussion, j’ai pris contact avec Christian, membre de Digital Courage, un hébergeur alternatif allemand.

Hi @chpietsch
I am Angie, employee at Framasoft, in charge of CHATONS coordination. It would be interesting for me and other members of CHATONS to talk about how we’d loved that DigitalCourage and other german-speaking alternative hosters could gather to create a collective like CHATONS in Germany. At CHATONS, we know that it’s not easy to incorporate non-French speaking hosters, but we think that each country should have its own alternative hosters collective.

EDIT par ljf: Il a répondu qu’il était d’accord pour discuter

Je lui ai quand même proposé d’indiquer sur Sondage - Digital Courage meet CHATONS - Framadate ses disponibilités pour en discuter. J’apprécierai ne pas être seule à échanger avec lui, donc si vous avez l’envie et la disponibilité, n’hésitez pas.

3 Likes

J’essayerai de me libérer pour faire le pont avec la discussion du FNF

Salut, j’ai plusieurs de contacts chez Digitalcourage. Mon temps est très très limité ces prochains jours, je peux essayer de leur toucher un mot maintenant et reprendre le fil dans une semaine

Maybe people from the @fnordkollektiv might be interested in joining the meeting. :slightly_smiling_face:

@nathanael i also have an account here :wink:

1 Like

Au regard des réponses sur le framadate, je vous propose de fixer ce temps d’échange le lundi 19 septembre à 19h. Ça se passera sur le salon Jitsi mis à disposition par Christian de Digital Courage.

Petite précision : les échanges auront lieu en anglais.

2 Likes

J’aime beaucoup l’idee de creer un reseau des hébergeurs alternatifs (et libres) en allemagne. En ce moment, nous (@fnordkollektiv ) et 4 autres collectifs essayons de creer un reseau des « worker owned cooperatives » en IT, mais ca c’est plus pour faire l’acquisition ensemble et partager resources et facultés. Mais pourtant, je croix on peut trouver des synergies :slight_smile: Je vais essayer participier aussi (dommage que ce ne sera pas en Francais, mais peut-être que je vais avoir l’opportunité de m’entrainer en Francais un autre fois, maintenant que je suis a cette instance de discourse ^^)

5 Likes

Tu es le bienvenu aaron !

Sorry for writing in English. I am the Christian mentioned in the title of this thread, and I just registered in this forum as recommended during the CHATONS presentation at the Freedom not Fear (FnF) barcamp.

I am a volunteer for Digitalcourage e.V.. Much of what I do is hosting, but Digitalcourage does much more than that – it is comparable in scope to La Quadrature du Net, but bigger I think.

When I asked Martin and Quentin at FnF whether Digitalcourage could join or otherwise co-operate with CHATONS, my intention was to exchange experiences with hosting certain FOSS services. For instance, I run an increasingly popular Framadate instance for Digitalcourage, and I would like to find out where this software is heading. I also run a PeerTube instance – another Framasoft project – and a Mastodon instance. For Mastodon accounts, we charge 1€/month. Other services are free.

3 Likes

Bienvenue à toi @aaron

Pour répondre à toi et à ce que @Angie disait dans l’autre fil, en tant que actrice dans un petit pays un réseau « national » n’est pas intéressant pour moi. Un réseau par langue ne change pas grand chose non plus parce qu’il y a toujours un pays dominant. C’est un problème des petits évidemment :upside_down_face:

Bonjour @agnez,
Je ne partage pas ton point de vue : il me semble qu’au sein du collectif CHATONS, qui est francophone et donc est ouvert à des hébergeurs de plusieurs pays, on essaie de prendre en compte les spécificités des un⋅es et des autres, à condition que chacun⋅e s’implique au sein du collectif.

Pour moi, pousser à la constitution d’un collectif d’hébergeurs alternatifs de langue allemande (ou de toute autre langue d’ailleurs), c’est permettre à l’ensemble de ces acteurs de se connaître les uns les autres, de s’entraider (ce que nous faisons bien au sein du CHATONS il me semble) et de se rassembler parce qu’à plusieurs on est souvent plus visibles. En revanche, je ne crois pas que cela soit possible en intégrant un collectif dont la langue d’expression est différente.

Je sais bien que CHATONS est ouvert et veut inclure, mais c’est naturel qu’une majoritée peut oublier que tout le monde n’est pas dans le même bain / sous la même législative / dans la même situation de subsides… Pas de reproche :slightly_smiling_face:

Je réagissais à ce que tu disais dans l’autre fil : que mieux encore que voir Diritalcourage trouver leur chemin vers les libreHosters serait qu’ils initient un regroupement d’hébergeurs alternatifs pour l’Allemagne.

Je ne trouverai pas idéale d’avoir un réseau par langue tout simplement.

Intégrer un réseau dont on ne comprends pas la langue ne fais effectivement pas de sens :upside_down_face:

Hello @chrispi !

I’ll reply to one part of your email only:

"For instance, I run an increasingly popular Framadate instance for Digitalcourage, and I would like to find out where this software is heading. I also run a PeerTube instance - another Framasoft project - and a Mastodon instance. For Mastodon accounts, we charge 1€/month. Other services are free.

This is a very broad question, quite moving, but I will try to be synthetic (while remaining focused on Framasoft).

Framadate: this software dates from… 2008 and was originally developed by the University of Strasbourg. I took it over with a Framasoft volunteer in 2010, and we announced it in 2011 Planifier librement ses rendez-vous avec Framadate – Framablog
The software was then maintained by Josephk (volunteer, then Framasoft employee) who greatly improved the accessibility aspect. In 2015, 2 volunteer contributors got motivated to do a big redesign of the code, which was announced in 2016 with the V1 (Framadate : passage en v1, happy hour pour tout le monde ! – Framablog )
Then, these voluntary contributors continued their roads, and JosephK and tcit (also a Framasoft employee, and developer of the joinmobilizon.org tool) regularly worked on it Commits · v1.1.x · Framasoft / Framadate / Framadate · GitLab

But… we (Framasoft employees) are unfortunately busy with many other projects (Mobilizon, PeerTube, Dégooglisons-Internet, CHATONS, etc). And we unfortunately don’t really have the time to work on Framadate, whose code base, even if improved along the way, remains a not very « sexy » project for a developer.

I would like to stress that there was no tension in the governance, no discord between the developers. Just a gradual exhaustion and a growing disinterest in developing the code for this project.

In 2021, we were contacted by a department of the DINUM (interministerial direction of the digital, basically the IT services of the State) which wanted to contribute in design and to pay us in service for code. Except that… our concern is not money, but time and energy.

The DesignGouv team therefore looked for a service provider (outside of Framasoft) and commissioned them to develop the code for a new software (from scratch) based on their design proposal (see https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x85y301 ). (for the anecdote, it is a developer member of a CHATONS who was retained : @tykayn )
This resulted in this announcement Framadate, notre première contribution au logiciel libre - DesignGouv and the following code Framasoft / Framadate / funky-framadate-front · GitLab
This (new) software is normally testable here: https://framadate-api.cipherbliss.com/ (but the site seems to be down)

In short, it’s a bit of a mess, let’s not lie.
Framadate, like Framaforms/Yakforms, are projects that Framasoft has been working on for years, but we don’t want to « inherit » them for the next 10 years, because we have other desires. For the moment, we continue to maintain these softwares in « survival » mode, but our wish is that a community of volunteer developers take over, even if it means completely forking/rewriting the projects.

For PeerTube, it is much simpler (fortunately). It is a project carried by a Framasoft employee since ~2016/2017. And this maintainer has no other projects assigned at the moment. So, we are guaranteed to have a major annual release of PeerTube for several years to come. However, the code is becoming overwhelming, and again, we (Framasoft) have failed so far to create an « autonomous » community (but at least there is an « active » community: Contributors to Chocobozzz/PeerTube · GitHub ).

In short, each software has its history, its particularities. Some will attract developers, others not. Our experience is that for a community to « live », it takes time (a lot of it) to animate and coordinate. This time may or may not be paid. Concerning CHATONS, Framasoft has been financing 30% of @angie’s work time to do this coordination since 2019 (it was me who was in charge of the coordination between 2016 and 2019), and I think that this is the key point of the (modest, but real) success of this collective compared to other equivalent collectives. Not because Framasoft employees would have done better than others, but because we made the choice to finance this coordination on our own funds. Without coordination/animation, a collective or a software often relies on one person (the story of the Heartbleed flaw is an eloquent case of this problem Heartbleed - Wikipedia ).

So there is no closed answer to your question about the direction that Framadate, PeerTube (or Yakforms, or CHATONS, or …) could take: it all depends, in my opinion, on the energy that everyone wants to put into taking care of the common.

Framasoft is certainly a « big » structure with 10 employees, but we have « only » 3 developers (tcit on Mobilizon, Chocobozz on PeerTube, and JosephK for the frontend of our 80+ websites).
The fact that « important » software like Framadate or PeerTube is so poorly supported is extremely frustrating, but despite years of exploration, we still haven’t found suitable solutions to avoid getting into dead ends (largely because, in my personal opinion, « Come and contribute! » is a nice word, but rarely followed by action).

(and sorry for all the links in french)

2 Likes

Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this in English. I knew some of it already because I have of course used the issue trackers of both projects a lot. But it’s helpful to see the big picture in one post.

I’m a big fan of « Dégooglisons Internet », and I would like to help spread this initiative beyond France. Maybe https://libreho.st/ is a good place to start.

By the way, three more FreedomNotFear participants told me that they would like to participate in our discussion on Monday: @aura and two sysadmins/activists from Digitalcourage e.V.

3 Likes

Hi, I’m unfortunately not sure that I will be able to join tonight, I’m still stuck away from home in my compagny’s factory abroad.

We are online on https://jitsi.digitalcourage.de/chatons if you want to join us

1 Like

Prise de note sur CryptPad

1 Like

Meeting notes are protected by a password, can you share it ?